Legislature(2001 - 2002)
03/15/2002 03:32 PM Senate RES
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
March 15, 2002
3:32 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator John Torgerson, Chair
Senator Gary Wilken, Vice Chair
Senator Ben Stevens
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Rick Halford
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Kim Elton
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 205
"An Act relating to control of nuisance wild animals; and
providing for an effective date."
HEARD AND HELD
SENATE BILL NO. 326
"An Act relating to evaluating state assumption of the wastewater
discharge program under the federal Clean Water Act; and
providing for an effective date."
HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 205 - No previous action to consider.
SB 326 - No previous action to consider.
WITNESS REGISTER
Mr. Robert Doran
HC 31, Box 5213
Wasilla AK 99654
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 205.
Mr. Wayne Regelin, Director
Division of Wildlife Conservation
Department of Fish and Game
P.O. Box 25526
Juneau AK 99802
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 205.
Mr. Frank Richards
Statewide Maintenance
Department of Transportation &
Public Facilities
3132 Channel Dr.
Juneau, AK 99801-7898
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported CSSB 205.
Senator Gene Therriault
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SB 205 and SB 326.
Mr. Tom Chapple, Director
Division of Air and Water Quality
Department of Environmental Conservation
555 Cordova St.
Anchorage AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 326.
Ms. Pamela Miller, Director
Alaska Community Action On Toxics
135 Christensen Dr.
Anchorage AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 326.
Mr. Charlie Broddy, Vice President
Governmental Relations
Usibelli Coal Mine
100 Cushman Ste. #210
Fairbanks AK 99701
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 326.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 02-10, SIDE A
Number 001
SB 205-CONTROL OF NUISANCE WILD ANIMALS
CHAIRMAN JOHN TORGERSON called the Senate Resources Committee
meeting to order at 3:32 p.m. and announced SB 205 to be up for
consideration.
MS. JANEY WINEINGER, staff to Senator Green, sponsor, explained
that this legislation would provide authority to the Alaska
Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) to issue permits and licenses
for the control of nuisance wild birds and other mammals. Senator
Green fully supports the proposed committee substitute (CS) and
amendment. This legislation would provide for licenses for
commercial exterminators and permits for homeowners,
corporations, agricultural enterprises and other entities who are
plagued by nuisance wildlife. It would also allow ADF&G to
collect bivalves for use in connection with aquatic farms and to
collect wild fur animals for the improvement of genetic stock.
Sometimes senior citizens or others want to control pests but
want to hire someone else to do the job. This bill gives the
authority to ADF&G to issue permits or licenses for such work.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked for examples of nuisance wild birds and
nuisance small mammals.
MR. ROBERT DORAN, Wasilla resident, said that he supports SB 205
because it gives ADF&G the authority he believes it should have
had from the time the department was established to effectively
manage wildlife in Alaska. It also provides an opportunity for
those wishing to pursue a career in animal damage control, a fast
growing business in the Lower 48. Based on population growth and
development in Alaska, he sees a real need for this service. As
an example, Mr. Doran said that beavers construct dams in
culverts, which has resulted in flooded rights-of-way. He told
members:
In no way whatsoever do I wish to give anybody the
impression that I simply desire free reign to capture
anything and everything 365 days a year. My own
personal business would be conducted based on specific
requests of companies, etc. who for whatever reason do
not wish to deal with conflicts involving wild animals.
Again, these conflicts range from property damage,
possible threats to public health and safety or even
cases in which a bird or animal becomes inadvertently
caught in a structure or within a confined area.
MR. WAYNE REGELIN, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation,
Alaska Department of Fish and Game, said the department supports
this legislation. It provides ADF&G with the statutory authority
to provide a license to a person for a commercial operation to
take care of nuisance wildlife or to issue a permit to an
individual or another agency to control nuisance wildlife. He
added:
It corrects a deficiency in our permit system, because
right now we can't issue a permit for this purpose. We
can for science or education or public safety, but we
are prohibited from doing it and there [are] not many
loopholes for us to do it where wildlife is causing a
real problem for some people. We like the idea that a
person that might need some help doing this that's old
or just doesn't want to do it themselves can hire
someone to do it. Maybe someone can make a living or
supplement their income at least.
He said he was referring to small animals, birds and porcupines,
beaver, squirrels in attics and that type of thing. The effective
date would allow the Board of Game time to provide definitions
and guidance. He said the proposed amendment will allow ADF&G to
give the Department of Transportation and Public Facilities
(DOTPF) a blanket permit for a season or area if it has continual
problems that ADF&G can't resolve. He remarked, "I think it's
probably wise to keep wildlife permits under the purview of ADF&G
and work real closely with DOT on where they need [to use them.]"
3:45 p.m.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said he has heard that DOTPF is tired of the
bureaucratic tangle it has to go through now to take care of
damage caused by beavers alongside the road "that ADF&G has put
on them."
SENATOR ELTON asked how the process works now.
MR. REGELIN replied that many people take care of the problems
themselves, but a lot of them call ADF&G and ask for permission
to get rid of nuisance animals. ADF&G can't give permission (to
kill a squirrel, for instance) and has to send a biologist out to
do it.
SENATOR ELTON said this bill didn't seem to take care of that
problem. He questioned, "This authorizes somebody to do it, but
who authorizes the act in the first place?"
MR. REGELIN replied that ADF&G usually sends a biologist to take
care of the problem; this bill would allow ADF&G to call someone
with a license to take care of it. He explained, "We don't have
to get involved and they probably have to pay a couple of bucks
and the squirrel or bat or whatever it is is out of their life."
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked, for the purpose of clarification, if he
could call the commercial guy directly to shoot a problem
squirrel or would he have to apply for a permit at ADF&G and then
hire the guy to do it.
MR. REGELIN replied that ADF&G's intent is:
The person that has the license to do this commercially
would have broad authority to do it within guidelines
that we provide so we won't have to be in the equation.
You would just call the person…
He said that this would probably only happen in the more
populated areas.
SENATOR ELTON continued to try and clarify and said:
I guess what I'm hearing is you can pop a porcupine any
time you want. The only issue that this bill addresses
is who pops the porcupine.
MR. REGELIN replied, "Right now there is no season or bag limits
on porcupines and you're not supposed to shoot them. You only let
people shoot them if they're causing a real problem…"
SENATOR ELTON said, "It allows a private individual to make a
decision on whether you take out the porcupine, whether you move
the porcupine, so the department wouldn't make that."
MR. REGELIN said that an individual can hire a person or come to
ADF&G for a permit. If the individual asks for a permit, ADF&G
will provide advice. The department does not want to kill animals
unnecessarily. He added:
But an individual has to call us and say I've got this
problem; how can I fix it? And then we give them a
permit to do it. The people who are in this to earn
money, we would give them some broad authorities and
work closely with to make sure they could do this and
we would urge them - like with porcupines - you can
usually move them a ways down the road and be done with
it. Beavers - you usually have to kill them. That's
part of the reason to keep the department in it. It
becomes an issue of what do you do with the animal and
the fur.
SENATOR ELTON asked if a definition of small mammals would be
included in the regulations and whether it would include wolves.
MR. REGELIN replied that ADF&G will make sure it doesn't include
wolves and coyotes, because that gets into a different arena. He
said he is reluctant to list all the species because one could be
inadvertently forgotten. The definition could say, "species like
squirrels" or "nothing bigger than a beaver."
SENATOR WILKEN moved to adopt the committee substitute to SB 205,
(Utermohle, 3/14/02, Version C). There were no objections and it
was so ordered.
SENATOR WILKEN moved to adopt amendment 1, which reads as
follows:
MR. FRANK RICHARDS, an engineer at DOTPF, informed members that
articles in the Daily News Miner said that road crews spend a
considerable amount of time in the summer and fall taking care of
culverts that are blocked by mammals. This is a big concern,
because when beavers block culverts, water dams up allows
infiltration, ice growth and degradation of the embankment and
the surface.
DOTPF supports the amendment but is concerned about granting
authority to the commissioner for the control and taking of
beavers only. In state-owned airports, DOTPF has fairly extensive
hazing programs for wildlife, primarily birds. He said, "I hope
this bill would not prevent us from continuing with our wildlife
hazing programs, because that is a major safety concern to the
FAA and the department as an airport operator."
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON noted that Mr. Regelin said DOTPF doesn't need
this amendment; it can just get a blanket permit. He asked if
that is how it would work or whether the committee should go
forward with the amendment.
MR. RICHARDS responded that currently DOTPF gets individual
permits, including permits for the airports. DOTPF must first get
a federal permit for airport work before it can get a state
permit.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked Mr. Regelin if this will affect the
airport bird situation.
MR. REGELIN replied that the way the bill is now it wouldn't
affect airports. He explained, "As soon as they get a federal
permit, we issue one. We have the authority to do that now in
Public Safety and we do it in each airport."
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked how ADF&G could raise Mr. Richards'
comfort level about being able to handle the beaver problem
without going through what DOTPF had to before.
MR. REGELIN replied that now ADF&G sort of stretches its
authority on beaver. It doesn't have authority but issues permits
because of the public safety issue with flooding. He noted:
This gives us the authority we need and now we can
issue by region or by however you want it organized and
do it one-year at a time. I don't think they're going
to abuse it and if he sends me a letter asking for it,
we'll issue him a permit.
MR. RICHARDS said DOTPF's working relationship with ADF&G on
permits is good. He stated, "As he indicated for the federal
permits for the airports it is pretty much a rubber stamp."
He stated if DOTPF can easily get a permit, whether it be on a
yearly basis or for individual actions, that would be
satisfactory for beaver control.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked if the committee should consider
changing the language to authorize the commissioner of ADF&G to
issue the commissioner of Transportation and Public Facilities
the right to take beavers that interfere with culverts.
MR. REGELIN replied that would be fine and, "That way when I'm
gone, it still happens."
SENATOR THERRIAULT said one of his concerns is that often the
Fairbanks person who would issue the permit in ADF&G is out on a
field trip for a week. He explained:
It's just near impossible. When you're trying to deal
with this in the fall before freezing, before the dams
are frozen in the culverts, you have a limited window
of time.
He also expressed concern about getting a carcass to ADF&G.
MR. REGELIN said they could do it region by region, but he
worries about having a permit that will say to bring the carcass
to ADF&G if possible. He clarified:
I think we all need to be very cautious about the
wanton waste of wildlife and just killing beaver and
not using the fur and some people like the meat. You
know, sometimes you just can't do it. So, we would ask
them to do that if it was possible….
Part of the reason we've done it on a case-by-case
basis through the area biologist is because we didn't
have the blanket authority. We'll issue these out of
the Juneau office just to DOT.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked, "Fish and Game may issue yearly permits
and then go on with authorizing the commissioner of DOT…"
SENATOR THERRIAULT said that would be a step in the right
direction, but he is still concerned. He related how he has tried
to find people to give beaver meat and pelts to, but the problem
is if you get the beavers before the dams freeze up, the pelt is
not in a usable condition. You have to find a trapper that's
willing to take the animal, freeze it and use the carcass for
other trapping purposes, but that's limited too, because a
trapper needs the freezer capacity to do that. He said:
What you end up with is DOT personnel standing in a
five-foot culvert pulling the brush out knowing full
well that the beaver will be back that night and it
will be even fuller the next day.
MR. RICHARDS commented, in regard to wanton waste, when DOTPF has
received permits from ADF&G, it would do the trapping or have
someone do it for them. DOTPF has been able to provide for the
disposal of the pelts. Senator Therriault's concern would be a
problem in rural areas. It would then be a burden on the
department to have to bring a carcass back to a central location
for disposal.
SENATOR ELTON said he was still struggling with the issue of
having a permit, but getting the authority from the department to
do it. He explained:
We're focusing now on giving the Department of
Transportation the ability to do this when it seems to
me if we create a system like this, why should we
expect the department to do it. Why shouldn't we expect
them to act like any other private landowner - pick up
the phone and call somebody that's licensed to do it
and have them do it.
MR. RICHARDS responded that in certain locations DOTPF can hire
others to come in and take the animal under their permit.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said he wanted to hold this bill with the
amendment pending to provide more time to work on the language.
SB 326-WASTEWATER DISCHARGE PROGRAM
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON announced SB 326 to be up for consideration.
SENATOR THERRIAULT, sponsor or SB 326, said he introduced this
bill to spur the state into looking at the possibility of
assuming the authority for issuing National Pollution Discharge
Elimination System) NPDES permits. The evaluation of whether it
makes sense for the state to do so fiscally and from the
standpoint of its ability to promote development in the state of
Alaska is complicated. There are a lot of expenses to be
considered and it's not something the state should undertake
lightly. He noted that the proposed committee substitute would
need one modification with regard to when the report should be
completed. The bill now says, "The first regular session of the
24th legislature." It should say, "The second regular session of
the 23rd legislature."
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked why a fiscal note was needed.
SENATOR THERRIAULT explained that it reflects the cost of doing
an evaluation on which to base the decision.
SENATOR ELTON said this bill only authorizes a study and it seems
that there should be other ways of doing it. He asked what the
thought process was in using this approach.
SENATOR THERRIAULT replied that state agency personnel need to be
involved, plus individuals from industry, whatever it takes to
enable the next legislature to decide if this is a good move for
the state to make. Currently, 44 other states and the U.S. Virgin
Islands administer this program themselves. The State of Idaho is
in the process of evaluating it and he thought it is moving
toward the adoption. He said he was open to discussing other ways
of getting to that decision-making point.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said he has mixed emotions about whether or
not the state should run it. He cautioned, "I think it becomes
too political... I'm not sure this wouldn't be detrimental to
getting permits, because it becomes way too political."
MR. TOM CHAPPLE, Director, Division of Air and Water Quality,
DEC, said he didn't have much more to add and would answer
questions. He told members this effort is the outgrowth of a
workgroup that was started a couple of years ago. DEC is looking
at redesigning its wastewater discharge permitting process. He
explained, "Right now we certify federal permits and issue some
state permits to smaller entities…"
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked if he supports the study.
MR. CHAPPLE replied that it's an issue that has been raised a
number of times in the past and if this work went forward, it
would be done around January of 2004.
4:07 p.m.
SENATOR ELTON asked what impact state primacy would have on
municipalities in the context of what municipalities pay to EPA
for wastewater discharge permits now and what the cost would be
in the future if the state has primacy.
MR. CHAPPLE replied:
Right now when EPA reviews and issues a permit, the
municipalities are almost all renewals of the federal
permit. They don't charge a fee. EPA does not charge a
fee. They have about 10 staff people that are dedicated
to Alaska permits. Under a bill that was passed by the
legislature a couple of years ago, HB 361, the state's
role in discharge permitting is partially offset
through user fees right now. So, municipalities pay for
the state's role in issuing that permit now, which is
defining mixing zones, establishing where the discharge
is, how big the mixing zone should be, what other site
specific issues come up, setting limits for where they
meet the water quality standards, etc. That cost is in
the range of $500 up to maybe $3 - $4,000 for some of
the larger municipalities. What the cost would be in
the future is really unknown. It depends on whether we
can bring federal dollars to make this program
work…This project would lay out those costs, look hard
at what funding sources, talk about what mix of user
fees and state or federal funds would be a way to make
the program work.
SENATOR ELTON asked Mr. Chapple if he thinks the state could do
the work faster or slower than the EPA.
MR. CHAPPLE replied that he hoped the state would be faster.
SENATOR ELTON asked, "To get to be faster, would you need a
budget increase?"
MR. CHAPPLE answered:
I think to be faster you would certainly have to have
more resources doing this work in Alaska than we
currently do now. Whether it's more than what the state
is now, plus a federal...
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said that isn't a fair question because DEC
doesn't have a budget for this program now.
SENATOR ELTON asked to rephrase his concern because he believes
it is important:
If, in fact, speed is contingent upon having the
resources available to do the work, I could see there
would be a disadvantage in moving it from EPA to DEC,
given the budget history the department has had.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said members do not have DEC's budget before
them.
SENATOR ELTON responded that members know DEC has fewer resources
now than it did 10 years ago. If it needs additional resources
the question is, "Are we going to accompany the transfer of
primacy with additional budget resources?"
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON retorted, "That will be something they will
have to include in their study..."
SENATOR ELTON asked if there had been an instance in which EPA
denied state primacy.
MR. CHAPPLE replied, to his knowledge, no, but he hadn't looked
at that thoroughly.
MS. PAMELA MILLER, Director, Alaska Community Action on Toxics,
said the stakeholders group for wastewater permitting that she
served on discussed policies, resources and staffing needs for an
effective permitting program for the ADEC. The group included oil
and gas, mining, local government, seafood processing and
conservation representatives. She commented:
Throughout the more than one year of meetings the group
did not consider the possibility that the state would
assume primacy. This bill I believe is premature and
unnecessary...
She said the stakeholders group did not reach consensus that ADEC
should assume primacy of the wastewater discharge program for
several reasons. The assumption was that it would take years
before consideration of primacy would even be on the table. There
is no reasonable assurance of the agency's competency,
established track record, adequate enforcement of monitoring, and
certainly there is a perpetual problem of a lack of adequate
funding for staff and a lack of expertise among the department's
staff.
MR. CHARLIE BRODDY, Vice President, Usibelli Coal Mine, supported
SB 326. He told the committee:
Currently, the major permit we have to get especially
in the water arena has to be done through EPA Region 10
in Seattle, Washington. If you read the [indisc]
reports for Region 10, they consistently have probably
one of the most massive backlogs of any region in the
United States, which means that to put a new mine or
section of a mine on line, you were probably looking at
a 3 to 5 year time period to secure an NPDES permit.
The bill allows the state to take the look that we've
all talked about for probably well over a decade and a
half - that is four federal programs that allow partial
or in their entirety the state to take primary
responsibility for should a state exercise that right.
Currently, the state does on a majority of the air
programs that are federally mandated and on a certain
coal mining reclamation program [indisc.].
I think that in deference to the prior speaker, I would
say the state DEC, and I'm speaking from a regional
basis in Fairbanks, has very confident well-heeled
individuals within their organization who can do an
adequate job, a more than adequate job of issuing
permits... We have somewhat of an unknown. It's hard to
give the committee hard facts and numbers because we're
all just guessing without this report.
He said they like to work with state people whenever possible
within their organization and outside.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON thanked everyone for their testimony and said
they would hold the bill for further work and adjourned the
meeting at 4:20 p.m.
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